Where does the Douglas sept of 'Douglass' originate - The Douglas Archives2024-03-29T16:01:48Zhttps://douglashistory.ning.com/forum/topics/where-does-the-douglas-sept-of-douglass-originate?commentId=3482022%3AComment%3A87123&xg_source=activity&feed=yes&xn_auth=noI appreciated a previous post…tag:douglashistory.ning.com,2020-04-20:3482022:Comment:968122020-04-20T23:29:06.480ZJudith Fleenorhttps://douglashistory.ning.com/profile/JudithFleenor
<p>I appreciated a previous posters condensing reasons down to the following:</p>
<p>It seems the prevailing theories for the second s of Douglass are</p>
<p>1) Clerical (3rd party) errors</p>
<p>2) Illiteracy errors (self errors)</p>
<p>3) Disambiguation between clans (Black and Red)</p>
<p>4) Something else.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I'd like to add to the something else for modern times. The advent of computers and databases for genealogical research. While I feel #3 above may have had real…</p>
<p>I appreciated a previous posters condensing reasons down to the following:</p>
<p>It seems the prevailing theories for the second s of Douglass are</p>
<p>1) Clerical (3rd party) errors</p>
<p>2) Illiteracy errors (self errors)</p>
<p>3) Disambiguation between clans (Black and Red)</p>
<p>4) Something else.</p>
<p></p>
<p>I'd like to add to the something else for modern times. The advent of computers and databases for genealogical research. While I feel #3 above may have had real family/clan significance, because I know having two "s"es was of importance in my family. Many documents may have not had the two "s"es because of #1 or #2 above. Now in modern times to make things easier to search many databases have "normalized" spelling of names. So what was Douglass, in the database becomes Douglas, or in another family name of mine what was Smyth, has become Smith. So while the original spelling of the name may be of importance to the family, the computer doesn't care about the significance, it is optimized for searching.</p> One can just began to imagine…tag:douglashistory.ning.com,2018-01-20:3482022:Comment:872292018-01-20T00:16:18.352ZMark Stephen Elliotthttps://douglashistory.ning.com/profile/MarkStephenElliott
<p>One can just began to imagine how may variation so name spellings I found for my name Elliott.…</p>
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<p>One can just began to imagine how may variation so name spellings I found for my name Elliott.</p>
<p><a href="https://books.google.com/books?id=DuU9AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA197&dq=History+Liddesdale+Ellot+Elwald+Elwand&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8xYj5n-XYAhVB_WMKHfo3BfsQ6AEINjAC#v=onepage&q=Elwandis&f=false" target="_blank">https://books.google.com/books?id=DuU9AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA197&dq=History+Liddesdale+Ellot+Elwald+Elwand&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi8xYj5n-XYAhVB_WMKHfo3BfsQ6AEINjAC#v=onepage&q=Elwandis&f=false</a></p>
<p></p>
<p>If you find the names Irwin, or Johnston, spelled as such the are likely from Ulster. In Ulster muster c1630 my name is spelled Ellot, and in 1650 colonies with English spellers which wanted to stick and "i", in a 1692 testimony is spelled "Elot", The early spelling on arrival to the American Colony can determine where the name most likely migrated from in the UK.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.therjhuntercollection.com/resources/muster-rolls-c-1630/search-muster-rolls/" target="_blank">http://www.therjhuntercollection.com/resources/muster-rolls-c-1630/search-muster-rolls/</a> Try Douglas and Doulgass</p> Excellent post! The only thin…tag:douglashistory.ning.com,2018-01-17:3482022:Comment:872832018-01-17T23:33:16.406ZAlfred Wilson Douglass, Jr.https://douglashistory.ning.com/profile/AlfredWilsonDouglassJr
<p>Excellent post! The only thing I gathered (from various sources, including Davie Ross) was that the second "s" was actually dropped. Flip a coin. There was a 2-s Douglass who had a timber cutting license with the English (ships' masts, a la "The Bowdoin Pines". He lived south of Bath/Brunswick Maine in the 1630's.</p>
<p>Excellent post! The only thing I gathered (from various sources, including Davie Ross) was that the second "s" was actually dropped. Flip a coin. There was a 2-s Douglass who had a timber cutting license with the English (ships' masts, a la "The Bowdoin Pines". He lived south of Bath/Brunswick Maine in the 1630's.</p> Excellent link;
https://packr…tag:douglashistory.ning.com,2018-01-15:3482022:Comment:872192018-01-15T21:56:07.364ZMark Stephen Elliotthttps://douglashistory.ning.com/profile/MarkStephenElliott
<p>Excellent link;</p>
<p><a href="https://packrat-pro.com/ships/shiplist.htm" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">https://packrat-pro.com/ships/shiplist.htm</a></p>
<p>Found;</p>
<p><em>The Hercules left London, England March 24, 1633/4 and Southampton on April 18, 1634 with her master, John Kiddey, arriving in New England at an unknown date.</em><br></br><em>The following alphabetical roll is according to document from the Port of Southampton, copied at "the Custom house in Portsmouth" on…</em></p>
<p>Excellent link;</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow noopener" href="https://packrat-pro.com/ships/shiplist.htm" target="_blank">https://packrat-pro.com/ships/shiplist.htm</a></p>
<p>Found;</p>
<p><em>The Hercules left London, England March 24, 1633/4 and Southampton on April 18, 1634 with her master, John Kiddey, arriving in New England at an unknown date.</em><br/><em>The following alphabetical roll is according to document from the Port of Southampton, copied at "the Custom house in Portsmouth" on December 6, 1735, by Thomas Whitehouse</em><br/><em>Certificate of March 24, 1633/4, London:</em></p>
<p><em><strong>Elliott, William</strong> (listed as William Elliot in "Planters of the Commonwealth")</em></p>
<p>The main forms of the name appear in an old rhyme:</p>
<p>The double L and single T<br/>Descend from <strong>Minto and Wolflee</strong>,</p>
<p>The double T and single L<br/>Mark the old race in Stobs that dwell,</p>
<p>The single L and single T<br/>The Eliots of <strong>St. Germains</strong> be,</p>
<p>But double T and double L<br/>Who they are, nobody can tell.</p>
<p></p>
<p>He would be a <strong>St. Germains</strong> Elliott, and I which family spelled their name as Elliot in the American Colony would be of; <strong>Minto and Wolflee. </strong>The poem for us Elliot with names Elliot, Eliott, Eliot, and Elliott, gives likely indication where the family came from. So spelling of the names <strong>Douglas</strong>, and <strong>Douglass,</strong> if the family is made up of different Y-DNA's excluding about a quarter for NPE non-parental events, then the name spelling Douglas, and Douglass would likely have regional localities previous to migration to the Plantations and Colonies, if they did migrate. Most list for Elliott in these early ship record would be of England, though most Elliott ancestry today overseas from the UK, their ancestry migrated from Scotland or Ulster, Ireland.</p> Howdy folks,
It seems the pre…tag:douglashistory.ning.com,2018-01-15:3482022:Comment:871322018-01-15T06:28:25.089ZBrian Douglasshttps://douglashistory.ning.com/profile/BrianDouglass
<p>Howdy folks,</p>
<p>It seems the prevailing theories for the second s of Douglass are</p>
<p>1) Clerical (3rd party) errors</p>
<p>2) Illiteracy errors (self errors)</p>
<p>3) Disambiguation between clans (Black and Red)</p>
<p>4) Something else.</p>
<p></p>
<p>So far, my research originated and continues to support theory 3, Disambiguation. As I mentioned some time back, I have traced my lineage in the US back to William Douglass, b 1641 in Maryland. Most recently, I came across…</p>
<p>Howdy folks,</p>
<p>It seems the prevailing theories for the second s of Douglass are</p>
<p>1) Clerical (3rd party) errors</p>
<p>2) Illiteracy errors (self errors)</p>
<p>3) Disambiguation between clans (Black and Red)</p>
<p>4) Something else.</p>
<p></p>
<p>So far, my research originated and continues to support theory 3, Disambiguation. As I mentioned some time back, I have traced my lineage in the US back to William Douglass, b 1641 in Maryland. Most recently, I came across <a href="https://packrat-pro.com/ships/shiplist.htm" target="_blank">https://packrat-pro.com/ships/shiplist.htm</a>. I found in their logs a Hugh Douglass, b 1613 London, indentured servant, jumped ship (Constance) in Delaware in 1635. Also in July 27, 1635, the ship Primrose was mastered by a Captain Douglass (no first name). Anne Stevens who compiled the shiplist did an exhausting job. And the microfiche from the State of Maryland is clearly legible. It has links to all source documentation, which comes from Ancestry.com, with records from all over the world (I refuse to sign up for an Ancestry.com account.) But very cool resource.</p>
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<p>In my case, the second S seems not to be typographical error, rather deliberate and consistent. Also, the stories of the Black Dinner and the battle of Arkinholm seem to support my GF's stories of Scottish royalty, a battle lost, the second S to separate us from the others, and emigration to the US.</p>
<p></p>
<p></p> note;
With http://forebears.i…tag:douglashistory.ning.com,2018-01-15:3482022:Comment:871232018-01-15T00:33:22.872ZMark Stephen Elliotthttps://douglashistory.ning.com/profile/MarkStephenElliott
<p>note;</p>
<div class="xg_user_generated"><p>With<span> </span><a href="http://forebears.io/surnames/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://forebears.io/surnames/</a><span> </span>just insert surname at end, as in;</p>
<p><a href="http://forebears.io/surnames/" rel="nofollow noopener" target="_blank">http://forebears.io/surnames/douglas…</a></p>
<p></p>
</div>
<p>note;</p>
<div class="xg_user_generated"><p>With<span> </span><a rel="nofollow noopener" href="http://forebears.io/surnames/" target="_blank">http://forebears.io/surnames/</a><span> </span>just insert surname at end, as in;</p>
<p><a rel="nofollow noopener" href="http://forebears.io/surnames/" target="_blank">http://forebears.io/surnames/douglas</a></p>
<p><a rel="nofollow noopener" href="http://forebears.io/surnames/" target="_blank">http://forebears.io/surnames/douglass</a></p>
<p>Using<span> </span><a rel="nofollow noopener" href="http://named.publicprofiler.org/" target="_blank">http://named.publicprofiler.org/</a><span> </span>with Douglas, and Elliot with a single ending letter, they concentrate more on the Scottish side of the border. With Douglass, and Elliott with a double ending last letter they concentrate on the English side of the border, with Elliott highly concentrated in Co. Fermanagh, Ulster, Ireland.</p>
<p>It seems like Douglas with variants, is a locality name <a rel="nofollow noopener" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas,_South_Lanarkshire" target="_blank">https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas,_South_Lanarkshire</a>, people would move out of Douglas, and be listed from "de" Douglas, such as John de Douglas, and by dropping the "de" Douglas became a surname. Some Douglas likely moved into England, where to peoples of both kingdoms, like to differentiate their names. This happens between a lot of nations, a name change, so in England on their northern border with Scotland, to show they were an English Douglas, a "s" was likely added. If you were living on the Scottish Borders in England, this would show that the Douglass English border family some loyalty to England. Though this is not felt to be the only reason for the difference in spelling. Would refer the "Douglass" spelling a variant not a sept, like the spelling of "Elliot", and "Elliott" are variant spellings.</p>
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<p>Another good program to give a visual of concentration of the names Douglas and Douglass or any other surname in the UK is; <a href="http://named.publicprofiler.org/%C2%A0" target="_blank" rel="noopener">http://named.publicprofiler.org/ </a>;</p> What a great discussion. I di…tag:douglashistory.ning.com,2018-01-12:3482022:Comment:872672018-01-12T03:43:37.905ZDaryl John Douglasshttps://douglashistory.ning.com/profile/DarylJohnDouglass
<p>What a great discussion. I didn't think I would spark such indepth investigation</p>
<p>Thanks one and all</p>
<p>Daryl</p>
<p>What a great discussion. I didn't think I would spark such indepth investigation</p>
<p>Thanks one and all</p>
<p>Daryl</p> This seems quite scientifical…tag:douglashistory.ning.com,2018-01-11:3482022:Comment:869972018-01-11T22:27:58.081ZAlfred Wilson Douglass, Jr.https://douglashistory.ning.com/profile/AlfredWilsonDouglassJr
<p>This seems quite scientifically (or demographically) valid. I wonder if the "two s" variety were chased out of their Lothian and Galloway haunts by the Red Douyglas and Stewart victors? Seems likely. Also, there seems tobe quite a few Douglasses in Ireland. There are ocean-loads in the Canadian Maritimes and Maine.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Good work andf good info, Ian!</p>
<p>This seems quite scientifically (or demographically) valid. I wonder if the "two s" variety were chased out of their Lothian and Galloway haunts by the Red Douyglas and Stewart victors? Seems likely. Also, there seems tobe quite a few Douglasses in Ireland. There are ocean-loads in the Canadian Maritimes and Maine.</p>
<p></p>
<p>Good work andf good info, Ian!</p> Russell, it was not my intent…tag:douglashistory.ning.com,2018-01-10:3482022:Comment:869922018-01-10T19:35:21.068ZIan Douglasshttps://douglashistory.ning.com/profile/IanDouglass
<p>Russell, it was not my intent to answer Daryl's initial question directly. In fact, if you look way back to my initial contribution to this discussion (more than three years ago, in fact), you'll see that I suggested the adoption of different spellings of Douglas might be due to individual preference, illiteracy, or a combination of factors.</p>
<p></p>
<p>My most recent reply is intended simply to identify a trend using data, and for people to draw their own conclusions as to what it might…</p>
<p>Russell, it was not my intent to answer Daryl's initial question directly. In fact, if you look way back to my initial contribution to this discussion (more than three years ago, in fact), you'll see that I suggested the adoption of different spellings of Douglas might be due to individual preference, illiteracy, or a combination of factors.</p>
<p></p>
<p>My most recent reply is intended simply to identify a trend using data, and for people to draw their own conclusions as to what it might mean, if anything. You'll notice, I didn't even hazard a guess as to what might be the cause of it, whether due to the adoption of naming customs common in those regions, or due to the migration of individuals from place to place. I am simply using the aggregated data as a device to contribute to the discussion, especially since I haven't seen this data posted on the Douglas(s) forum in the past.</p> Percentages by location and M…tag:douglashistory.ning.com,2018-01-10:3482022:Comment:871922018-01-10T19:19:22.928ZRussell Lynn Drysdalehttps://douglashistory.ning.com/profile/RussellLynnDrysdale
<p>Percentages by location and Math wasn't the question of Daryl's . Rather more particular towards the question was spelling. Most folks couldn't spell their own names so they just made a mark ....on whatever they were signing ...</p>
<p>The earliest form of the Drysdale name that I have been able to find , was in fact , in LATIN & spelled As such..... DRIVESDALE ... [<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>c.1215 . Charter by Robert de Bruc , to Hugh son of Ingevald of the…</strong></em></span></p>
<p>Percentages by location and Math wasn't the question of Daryl's . Rather more particular towards the question was spelling. Most folks couldn't spell their own names so they just made a mark ....on whatever they were signing ...</p>
<p>The earliest form of the Drysdale name that I have been able to find , was in fact , in LATIN & spelled As such..... DRIVESDALE ... [<span style="text-decoration: underline;"><em><strong>c.1215 . Charter by Robert de Bruc , to Hugh son of Ingevald of the whole of the land which his father held in DRIVESDALE. Hugh shall hold it in wood and plain, land and water monastery and mill ] this is one of the 40+ written variants of my name [s] The double SS / single S Douglas/s spellings were IMHO variants and that's all .</strong></em></span>.. Remember that folks who are illiterate, how can they place a value on spelling of the written word ??? Whatever the answers to this question is , the answers I can guarantee you the unique opportunity for Douglas/s is in LATIN as well ...not that I can decipher any of the language, but it was so well preserved.... Not to step on any toes here , but ,You may have been told by so and so that uncle some body Douglas/s got a bit mad at another Douglas/person/people/family or group and the answer was Gee thanks for the inconvenience caused to me and mine , well I'm going to just seek myself some justice with the most inadequate tools that I have available to me. . You may be able to sell that story within the past 100 years or so ...prior to that I would say you're just chasing your tails and not much more than that.</p>
<p>The values WE place on spellings <strong>today</strong> was not as relevant to the unlearned, be they landed gentry or just common folk... You all may have a view of how's your name my business??? I have Douglas on my moms side that married in to my Moorman descended lines... Oh yeah and then theres them Douglas in the. Drysdale document where them fellows just slam up n went on and changed their whole surname to Drysdale. Now . It's believable , yeah , there is a possibility it's just as likely a lie told to the Dunfermline Press thats the first place it surfaced at</p>
<p></p>
<p><a href="http://www.genealogywise.com/group/drysdalearchives/forum/topics/predating-the-origin-of-the-name-drysdale" target="_blank">http://www.genealogywise.com/group/drysdalearchives/forum/topics/predating-the-origin-of-the-name-drysdale</a></p>