I read the pdf, quite interesting reading and then I checked out the Douglases in Monaghan. They first took up tenancies there, on what became Lord or Baron Rossmore's estates, towards the end of the 1600s and were still living there in the mid 1860s. I don't know the situation today but in the mid 1800s there were definitely quite a lot of Douglas families living in Monaghan - see images below.
I also tried to find out some additional info on the Douglases in Dublin in the 1850s and found some directory listings that confirmed that there were Johns, James' and one George living in Dublin at the right time, also a Patrick O'Toole. However there was no confirmation of a James in Linen Manufacture. There were a few mentions of a John that was dealing in the linen trade. No business was listed for Patrick O'Toole (the ship broker).
So to conclude, there were obviously a lot of Douglases living in Ireland in the mid 1800s (the clips below are just a small selection from Dublin & Monahaghan areas) but unfortunately most of the people are not linked/identified by surviving Parish records so relationships between the various family goups are very difficult to establish.
I didn't find anything that linked your ancestors to Monaghan, this doesn't mean that they aren't linked, it just means that I didn't find any evidence.
Returning to the father of George - there is a possibilty that the entry for James on the 1851 wedding record was an error and it should have been John. If there were any other documents naming James as the father then that uncertainty & problem area could be closed down - but the other indications curently seem to point to John.
I think we've come to the point where you may have to make an informed choice (based on your research) as we have two documents which give conflicting information about George's father:
The 1851 marriage record which states his father was called James (see below) and the 1827 birth record which states his father was called John.
I have been unable to find any additional records which support James as the father of George. There are a couple of possible ancestral lines with John as the father.
Baptism of Edward Joseph Douglas to George Douglas & Eliz OToole on 13th April 1853 at St. Michan's, Dublin city; County of Dublin; Archdiocese of Dublin
If George Douglas was born in 1827 as per the parish record in my previous post, then your earliest Douglas ancestor then becomes John Douglas (+wife Judith) and also it's possible that John's parents are a Richard Douglas and Ann Monk who were married on 16 August 1795 at St. Michan's Catholic Church, Dublin, County Dublin.
George Douglas marriage to Elizabeth O'Toole 29th June 1851, St. Mary's, Dublin city; County of Dublin; Archdiocese of Dublin. Witness Alexander Brice & ?? O'Toole
The Melbourne General Cemetery is a significant historical site located in Carlton North, Melbourne, Australia. Opened in 1853, it was the first cemetery in Victoria to be designed as a public park, featuring curved pathways and extensive trees. The cemetery is notable as the final resting place for many prominent figures, including five Australian Prime Ministers and eight state premiers. But whose is this memorial?
You told me George and Eliza Douglas, from Ireland, had 3 children before setting off to Australia. You thought that you had them coming into Melbourne on the Brig of Hamburgh, Reibersteig 10 September 1852. I think the the name of that brig might be the 'Reiherstieg' of Hamburg (i.e. not Brig of Hamburgh). Apart from the two named cabin passengers, there were 56 men and 41 women (no mention of children).
The more information you can give about the people you mention, the more chance there is of someone else connecting with your family.
Dates and places of births, deaths and marriages all help to place families.
Professions also help.
'My great-grandmother mother was a Douglas from Montrose' does not give many clues to follow up! But a bit of flesh on the bones makes further research possible. But if we are told who she married, what his profession was and where the children were baptised, then we can get to work.
Maybe it is time to update the information in your profile?
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Susanne Douglas's Comments
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Hi Susanne,
Unfortunately your pdf link didn't lead anywhere: "C:\Users\suepd\OneDrive\Desktop\James douglas murder - Copy.pdf" hope this is readable"
Some final documents on Douglas & county Monaghan for info only:
1667 deed Douglas in Monaghan
1738 Oliver Douglas Rector of Monaghan Son of John Douglas gen. - CLOGHER CLERGY AND PARISHES
1739 Oliver Douglas Rector of Monaghan
Baron Rossmore Monaghan 1858 2 of 2 - sale of lands held since 1697 by James Douglas in Tydnavet
James & John Douglas land records Muckno, Tullyvanyh, Monaghan 1825
Best regards
Hi Susanne,
I read the pdf, quite interesting reading and then I checked out the Douglases in Monaghan. They first took up tenancies there, on what became Lord or Baron Rossmore's estates, towards the end of the 1600s and were still living there in the mid 1860s. I don't know the situation today but in the mid 1800s there were definitely quite a lot of Douglas families living in Monaghan - see images below.
I also tried to find out some additional info on the Douglases in Dublin in the 1850s and found some directory listings that confirmed that there were Johns, James' and one George living in Dublin at the right time, also a Patrick O'Toole. However there was no confirmation of a James in Linen Manufacture. There were a few mentions of a John that was dealing in the linen trade. No business was listed for Patrick O'Toole (the ship broker).
So to conclude, there were obviously a lot of Douglases living in Ireland in the mid 1800s (the clips below are just a small selection from Dublin & Monahaghan areas) but unfortunately most of the people are not linked/identified by surviving Parish records so relationships between the various family goups are very difficult to establish.
I didn't find anything that linked your ancestors to Monaghan, this doesn't mean that they aren't linked, it just means that I didn't find any evidence.
Returning to the father of George - there is a possibilty that the entry for James on the 1851 wedding record was an error and it should have been John. If there were any other documents naming James as the father then that uncertainty & problem area could be closed down - but the other indications curently seem to point to John.
Best regards
IMG_20251010_0001.pdf
Hi Susanne,
I think we've come to the point where you may have to make an informed choice (based on your research) as we have two documents which give conflicting information about George's father:
The 1851 marriage record which states his father was called James (see below) and the 1827 birth record which states his father was called John.
I have been unable to find any additional records which support James as the father of George. There are a couple of possible ancestral lines with John as the father.
Best regards
Hi Susanne,
Baptism of Edward Joseph Douglas to George Douglas & Eliz OToole on 13th April 1853 at St. Michan's, Dublin city; County of Dublin; Archdiocese of Dublin
https://registers.nli.ie/pages/vtls000633590_047
If George Douglas was born in 1827 as per the parish record in my previous post, then your earliest Douglas ancestor then becomes John Douglas (+wife Judith) and also it's possible that John's parents are a Richard Douglas and Ann Monk who were married on 16 August 1795 at St. Michan's Catholic Church, Dublin, County Dublin.
Best regards
George Douglas marriage to Elizabeth O'Toole 29th June 1851, St. Mary's, Dublin city; County of Dublin; Archdiocese of Dublin.
Witness Alexander Brice & ?? O'Toole
https://registers.nli.ie/registers/vtls000633773?locale=en#page/215/mode/1up
Best regards
Hi Susanne.
Could this be your relative?
George Douglas Birth 15th July 1827 Rathfarnham; County of Dublin; Archdiocese of Dublin.
Father John Douglas, Mother Judith Douglas
https://registers.nli.ie/pages/vtls000633448_100
Best regards
Sorry, I should also have put a link:
https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/191828347/george-j-douglas
Best regards
The Melbourne General Cemetery is a significant historical site located in Carlton North, Melbourne, Australia.
Opened in 1853, it was the first cemetery in Victoria to be designed as a public park, featuring curved pathways and extensive trees. The cemetery is notable as the final resting place for many prominent figures, including five Australian Prime Ministers and eight state premiers.
But whose is this memorial?
Hi Susanne,
That is a really splendid memorial in the Melbourne General Cemetery:
Best regards
The Hamburg brig REIHERSTIEG arrival Melbourne 10 September 1852.
Best regards
Hi Suzanne.
Are the people in the documents below your relatives?
George Dougas & Eliza - New South Wales. Gravestone Transcription Records 1975
George Douglas will 1899
Irish records are very few and far between - you have a difficult job there.
Best regards
Susanne,
You told me George and Eliza Douglas, from Ireland, had 3 children before setting off to Australia. You thought that you had them coming into Melbourne on the Brig of Hamburgh, Reibersteig 10 September 1852.
I think the the name of that brig might be the 'Reiherstieg' of Hamburg (i.e. not Brig of Hamburgh). Apart from the two named cabin passengers, there were 56 men and 41 women (no mention of children).
See: http://www.shipindex.org/ships/reiherstieg
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Making conections
The more information you can give about the people you mention, the more chance there is of someone else connecting with your family.
Dates and places of births, deaths and marriages all help to place families.
Professions also help.
'My great-grandmother mother was a Douglas from Montrose' does not give many clues to follow up! But a bit of flesh on the bones makes further research possible. But if we are told who she married, what his profession was and where the children were baptised, then we can get to work.
Maybe it is time to update the information in your profile?
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