......An estimated 6,000 children were sent West from the NYJA between September 1854 and circa 1923, placing it in the top four (for the number of children sent) of those institutions credited for taking part in America’s Orphan Train Movement..........
His orphan status in 1856 corresponds with the death of his father in December 1852 and possible abandonment by his mother (due death or poverty) in Jan 1856.
Where he went after that, I haven't been able to find out.
John Mitchell employed John Mitchell Douglas as a Ships Master on his ship called the John Mitchell.
When of course it should have been "James Mitchell Douglas" who was employed as master.
You also said "what is needed is the birth record of Henry and the mother of James .that will help tie it all together"
I think you meant wife of James as we already know James' mother was Catherine Mitchell.
That being said, you are quite right, the biggest remaining problem seems to be Henry's missing birth record and the name of his mother.
Available records indicate Henry was born in America but where and when? The best indicator we have I think is the 1871 Yorkshire census record in which he is listed as being 19 years old, works on the railway and was born in America, also his 1889 prison record says that his native place was Brooklyn, New York and that he had worked for the Railway Department as a shunter (a kind of engine driver).
So that is where we are at, but I do think that you have just about got your links to Scotland sorted out.
A merry Xmas and a happy new year to you and your family.
Post script - From Wikipedia we can see that John Mitchell was married to Janet Hamilton in 1813 and I think it is reasonable to speculate that this must be from whence the 'Hamilton' comes from in your Henry Hamilton Douglas relative.
I know you are not too happy with James Mitchell Douglas, but after some further checking I've discovered that James' mother, Catherine Mitchell, was actually the sister of shipowner John Mitchell - John Mitchell (1786–1881) who was a Scottish merchant and ship owner in Glasgow, known as "the Father of the Glasgow Town Council"
Hi Ian. I'm not sure I follow your logic there, on 4th May 1850 James Douglas was in Glasgow as the Lloyds Register Survey report of that date confirms.
"our James captained the barque John Mitchell to australia from london in 1848/9 and my trail has gone cold in Melbourne"
But the trail has not gone cold! - after James was in Melbourne, he took the ship back to Glasgow and, on 7th May 1850 was preparing the ship for a trip to Bombay as the Lloyds survey report of that date reveals. see below:
Press the tab for full details on each page of the three links above and you will see that James Douglas was the master of the John Mitchell in 1847, 1848 and in 1850
Report of Survey for Repairs; Restoration for John Mitchell, 24th September 1847
Report of Survey for Repairs for John Mitchell, 25th November 1848
Annual Surveys Report for John Mitchell, 4th May 1850
So James (Mitchell) Douglas was quite a busy little chap and I think that it's quite possible he may also be related to the ship owner - John Mitchell. Apart from his other voyages. for a while in 1852 he also seems to have had his own shipping company (image in previous post).
So the question remains, did he have the time to father young Henry in America before he died in Drcember 1852?
A brief Update on our Ships Captain James Mitchell Douglas:
We know that on Sunday March 30 1851 (Scottish census date) James was in the Gorbals in Glasgow, we now also know that on December 5th 1852 James was in America, because that was the date he died of Tetanus in San Francisco!
I have a Lloyds List record for him sailing from Glasgow (Clyde) to San Francisco as Master on the vessel Isle of Wight on 20-5-1852 and also a Lloyds Register record for him sailing as Master to Natal in late 1851/early 1852. No doubt he also made other trips within that period.
The important question here is ~ did he have the time, in the period march 1851 - December 1852, to father a child ~ young Henry Douglas in America?
One of the reasons for my last post was the fact that I've found another scottish census form for 1851, and this again gives details of James Douglas as a Ships master, in Glasgow but which also gives details of his mother Catherine Douglas and suggests that James' father was in fact a William Douglas. i.e Different parentage to that assumed by me and posted in the Familysearch tree.
The 1851 census incorrectly gives James Douglas (Ships Master) an age of 39 years, but I checked on Scotlandspeople and it's an error it should be 29 years which aligns with the info given on the 1841 census.
If Captain James is in Glasgow, Scotland & unmarried, in 1851 (no trace of him there after that) does this impinge upon or complement the presumed birth of Henry in Brooklyn circa 1852?
The current part of the tree with his new parents is below & and james has a new middle name as per his 1820 birth record:
On checking back through what I suggested in the last post, I would now only assign a 15% credibility rating to the family line I put up on the Familysearch website ~ i.e. good as a working hypothesis until some actual factual details emerge.
With regard to factual details, up until now I had been working on the assumption that the father of Henry was known to be one James Douglas and I did also take note of the 20 year old post on Rootschat:
"What is Known
Henry Hamilton Douglas jumped ship in Durham England. (Date Unknown) An American Midshipman. He Married in Durham 1872. On the marriage certificate His father is listed as James Douglas Sea Captain....At this time Henry is 20 years of age. Making Birth of about 1852. I had been hoping he would appear on the Durham 1871 census but alas no sign of him there...... Henry and his family Emigrated to South Australia in 1879.
New information on this man has just come to light this week where his Place of Birth is listed as Brooklyn New York not Manhattan. Wondering if this may make a difference in locating him."
However I have been unable to obtain a copy of the said marriage certificate, in fact the only online records that currently exist for this marriage do not show a 'James' as the father in the indexed information (although one does list a 'John').
There seem to be a lot of Henry Douglases around - just in the Durham area alone, for 1872, there are marriage records for at least 3 Henry Douglases.
So my question here is, do you have the actual marriage record for Henry, where James Douglas is listed as his father, and if so could you post up a copy?
I had a look for possible New York/James Douglas connections - there are just too many I think, to be able to find the right one. I did find a James Douglass in one of the New York City Directories 1847–1849 who is listed as a Mariner - see pdf:
So I started to look for UK connections, bearing in mind that your family must have originated in Scotland at some time prior to its link with New York.
I found a James Douglas in the 1841 Glasgow census in Scotland who called himself a Ships Master at the age of 20, similarly I found a James Douglas who in 1848 was fully certified 1st Class Ship's Captain, again in Glasgow ~ probably the same person as the dates, names, ages and places match.
I also tried tracing back the second Henry Douglas from Yatala prison in 1884 - aged 57 years from Edinburgh. I found him ~ Christened 31 May at Cockpen, Midlothian, Scotland.
I noted from the existing tree that he had a brother born about 1820 named James, and another brother named John whose children all emigrated to Australia.
So this could be your UK connection, your James was probably born in Scotland around 1820, qualified as a Ships Master and then migrated with his family to the US circa 1850.
Then Henry was born in 1852 in Brooklyn New York etc......
I've modified the Familysearch tree to reflect these relationships (I joined up the two existing family lines that were both dead ends):
This is probably your relative 'Henry Douglas' - in the 1871 census at Great Ayton in North Yorkshire (Great Ayton is about 35 miles from Heworth the residence of his future wife Jane Woodruff).
If so, it seems as though he was shot while attempting a burglary in 1893 and died of his wounds:
There is a Henry Douglas of around the right age in the 1865 Census in Brooklyn, New York with a father who is called James Douglas
Finally, this is probably just a coincidence - he could be a relative (uncle perhaps) - but there is another (older) Henry Douglas, a surgeon, who was imprisoned in the same prison (Yatala) in 1884 for exactly the same offence as the younger Henry Douglas was in 1889!
The 1889 prison record gives some useful info if you can confirm that he is who you are interested in.
The more information you can give about the people you mention, the more chance there is of someone else connecting with your family.
Dates and places of births, deaths and marriages all help to place families.
Professions also help.
'My great-grandmother mother was a Douglas from Montrose' does not give many clues to follow up! But a bit of flesh on the bones makes further research possible. But if we are told who she married, what his profession was and where the children were baptised, then we can get to work.
Maybe it is time to update the information in your profile?
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Ian hamilton douglas's Comments
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Hi Ian,
Using William post for 'John's Cousin and other relatives' (which is helpful)
The Janet Hamilton (wife of John Mitchell) in your tree is the great Aunt of Henry Hamilton Douglas.
Also I think I may have located young Henry in America, no details for his mother unfortunately.
In the 1860 New York Census, he is listed as being in the New York Juvenile Asylum (for orphans etc).
The asylum records (of circa 1860) indicate that Henry was admitted to the Asylum on Jan 17 1856 and discharged 'west' on October 28th 1861.
To be discharged 'west' from the asylum means he probably was sent on one of the Orphan trains:
The Orphan Trains of the New York Juvenile Asylum
https://newyorkjuvenileasylum.com/#primary
......An estimated 6,000 children were sent West from the NYJA between September 1854 and circa 1923, placing it in the top four (for the number of children sent) of those institutions credited for taking part in America’s Orphan Train Movement..........
His orphan status in 1856 corresponds with the death of his father in December 1852 and possible abandonment by his mother (due death or poverty) in Jan 1856.
Where he went after that, I haven't been able to find out.
Best regards & seasons Greetings
Hi Ian,
You're right I did make a mistake there, I said:
John Mitchell employed John Mitchell Douglas as a Ships Master on his ship called the John Mitchell.
When of course it should have been "James Mitchell Douglas" who was employed as master.
You also said "what is needed is the birth record of Henry and the mother of James .that will help tie it all together"
I think you meant wife of James as we already know James' mother was Catherine Mitchell.
That being said, you are quite right, the biggest remaining problem seems to be Henry's missing birth record and the name of his mother.
Available records indicate Henry was born in America but where and when? The best indicator we have I think is the 1871 Yorkshire census record in which he is listed as being 19 years old, works on the railway and was born in America, also his 1889 prison record says that his native place was Brooklyn, New York and that he had worked for the Railway Department as a shunter (a kind of engine driver).
So that is where we are at, but I do think that you have just about got your links to Scotland sorted out.
A merry Xmas and a happy new year to you and your family.
Best regards
Hi Ian,
I'm sorry for the info overload.,
James Mitchell Douglas' father was William Douglas and he was married to Catherine Mitchell who in turn was the sister of the Shipowner John Mitchell.
John Mitchell was thus the brother in law of William Douglas.
John Mitchell was married to Janet Hamilton.
John Mitchell employed John Mitchell Douglas as a Ships Master on his ship called the John Mitchell.
Henry Hamilton Douglas was the son of James Mitchell Douglas who died shortly after Henry's birth in 1852.
I've tidied up the Familysearch tree to show these relationships
Best regards
Post script - From Wikipedia we can see that John Mitchell was married to Janet Hamilton in 1813 and I think it is reasonable to speculate that this must be from whence the 'Hamilton' comes from in your Henry Hamilton Douglas relative.
Hi Ian,
I know you are not too happy with James Mitchell Douglas, but after some further checking I've discovered that James' mother, Catherine Mitchell, was actually the sister of shipowner John Mitchell - John Mitchell (1786–1881) who was a Scottish merchant and ship owner in Glasgow, known as "the Father of the Glasgow Town Council"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Mitchell_(merchant)
It was one of his ships (the John Mitchell) that Captain James Mitchell Douglas took to Australia in 1849 (while calling himself James Douglas).
Best regards
Hi Ian.
I'm not sure I follow your logic there, on 4th May 1850 James Douglas was in Glasgow as the Lloyds Register Survey report of that date confirms.
Captain/Master - one & the same
Hi Ian,
"our James captained the barque John Mitchell to australia from london in 1848/9 and my trail has gone cold in Melbourne"
But the trail has not gone cold! - after James was in Melbourne, he took the ship back to Glasgow and, on 7th May 1850 was preparing the ship for a trip to Bombay as the Lloyds survey report of that date reveals. see below:
https://hec.lrfoundation.org.uk/archive-library/documents/lrf-pun-gls140-0008-r
https://hec.lrfoundation.org.uk/archive-library/documents/lrf-pun-lon625-0477-r
https://hec.lrfoundation.org.uk/archive-library/documents/lrf-pun-gls140-0315b-r
Press the tab for full details on each page of the three links above and you will see that James Douglas was the master of the John Mitchell in 1847, 1848 and in 1850
Report of Survey for Repairs; Restoration for John Mitchell, 24th September 1847
Report of Survey for Repairs for John Mitchell, 25th November 1848
Annual Surveys Report for John Mitchell, 4th May 1850
So James (Mitchell) Douglas was quite a busy little chap and I think that it's quite possible he may also be related to the ship owner - John Mitchell. Apart from his other voyages. for a while in 1852 he also seems to have had his own shipping company (image in previous post).
So the question remains, did he have the time to father young Henry in America before he died in Drcember 1852?
Best regards
Hi Ian.
A brief Update on our Ships Captain James Mitchell Douglas:
We know that on Sunday March 30 1851 (Scottish census date) James was in the Gorbals in Glasgow, we now also know that on December 5th 1852 James was in America, because that was the date he died of Tetanus in San Francisco!
Ref: https://www.old-merseytimes.co.uk/deaths1853.html
The important question here is ~ did he have the time, in the period march 1851 - December 1852, to father a child ~ young Henry Douglas in America?
Best regards
Hi Ian,
Many thanks for confirming Henry's parentage.
One of the reasons for my last post was the fact that I've found another scottish census form for 1851, and this again gives details of James Douglas as a Ships master, in Glasgow but which also gives details of his mother Catherine Douglas and suggests that James' father was in fact a William Douglas. i.e Different parentage to that assumed by me and posted in the Familysearch tree.
The 1851 census incorrectly gives James Douglas (Ships Master) an age of 39 years, but I checked on Scotlandspeople and it's an error it should be 29 years which aligns with the info given on the 1841 census.
If Captain James is in Glasgow, Scotland & unmarried, in 1851 (no trace of him there after that) does this impinge upon or complement the presumed birth of Henry in Brooklyn circa 1852?
The current part of the tree with his new parents is below & and james has a new middle name as per his 1820 birth record:
Best regards
Hi again Ian,
On checking back through what I suggested in the last post, I would now only assign a 15% credibility rating to the family line I put up on the Familysearch website ~ i.e. good as a working hypothesis until some actual factual details emerge.
With regard to factual details, up until now I had been working on the assumption that the father of Henry was known to be one James Douglas and I did also take note of the 20 year old post on Rootschat:
"What is Known
Henry Hamilton Douglas jumped ship in Durham England. (Date Unknown) An American Midshipman. He Married in Durham 1872. On the marriage certificate His father is listed as James Douglas Sea Captain....At this time Henry is 20 years of age. Making Birth of about 1852. I had been hoping he would appear on the Durham 1871 census but alas no sign of him there...... Henry and his family Emigrated to South Australia in 1879.
New information on this man has just come to light this week where his Place of Birth is listed as Brooklyn New York not Manhattan. Wondering if this may make a difference in locating him."
https://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=37648.0
However I have been unable to obtain a copy of the said marriage certificate, in fact the only online records that currently exist for this marriage do not show a 'James' as the father in the indexed information (although one does list a 'John').
There seem to be a lot of Henry Douglases around - just in the Durham area alone, for 1872, there are marriage records for at least 3 Henry Douglases.
So my question here is, do you have the actual marriage record for Henry, where James Douglas is listed as his father, and if so could you post up a copy?
Best regards
Hi Ian,
I had a look for possible New York/James Douglas connections - there are just too many I think, to be able to find the right one. I did find a James Douglass in one of the New York City Directories 1847–1849 who is listed as a Mariner - see pdf:
New York City. Directories 1847–1849
So I started to look for UK connections, bearing in mind that your family must have originated in Scotland at some time prior to its link with New York.
I found a James Douglas in the 1841 Glasgow census in Scotland who called himself a Ships Master at the age of 20, similarly I found a James Douglas who in 1848 was fully certified 1st Class Ship's Captain, again in Glasgow ~ probably the same person as the dates, names, ages and places match.
I also tried tracing back the second Henry Douglas from Yatala prison in 1884 - aged 57 years from Edinburgh. I found him ~ Christened 31 May at Cockpen, Midlothian, Scotland.
I noted from the existing tree that he had a brother born about 1820 named James, and another brother named John whose children all emigrated to Australia.
So this could be your UK connection, your James was probably born in Scotland around 1820, qualified as a Ships Master and then migrated with his family to the US circa 1850.
Then Henry was born in 1852 in Brooklyn New York etc......
I've modified the Familysearch tree to reflect these relationships (I joined up the two existing family lines that were both dead ends):
Best regards
There are a couple of candidates here:
https://www.douglashistory.co.uk/history/henry_douglas_convict.html
Hi again,
This is probably your relative 'Henry Douglas' - in the 1871 census at Great Ayton in North Yorkshire (Great Ayton is about 35 miles from Heworth the residence of his future wife Jane Woodruff).
Best regards
Another photo from Familysearch:
Best regards
Hi Ian
Welcome to the Douglas Archives.
Is this your relative?
If so, it seems as though he was shot while attempting a burglary in 1893 and died of his wounds:
There is a Henry Douglas of around the right age in the 1865 Census in Brooklyn, New York with a father who is called James Douglas
Finally, this is probably just a coincidence - he could be a relative (uncle perhaps) - but there is another (older) Henry Douglas, a surgeon, who was imprisoned in the same prison (Yatala) in 1884 for exactly the same offence as the younger Henry Douglas was in 1889!
The 1889 prison record gives some useful info if you can confirm that he is who you are interested in.
Interesting ancestry!
Best regards
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Making conections
The more information you can give about the people you mention, the more chance there is of someone else connecting with your family.
Dates and places of births, deaths and marriages all help to place families.
Professions also help.
'My great-grandmother mother was a Douglas from Montrose' does not give many clues to follow up! But a bit of flesh on the bones makes further research possible. But if we are told who she married, what his profession was and where the children were baptised, then we can get to work.
Maybe it is time to update the information in your profile?
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