Jones-Douglas Conundrum

[Ruby Petra Louise Douglas]

Kia ora everyone, I've decided to post something here after hitting a bit of a wall in trying to untangle a bit of a confusion in my family's recordings of our history, and so I'm sharing it here on the off chance that someone might know something :)

There's a story, in my family, which goes that my great grandfather grew up knowing himself as Walter Jones, until WW1 came around. He, born in 1901, was too young to participate, but attempted to join a local boys group (he lived in Middlesborough, Yorkshire, at the time)- this, for whatever reason, would require proof of his identity, such as a birth certificate. His mother (Isabella) fought him at every turn, denying any possibility that he could join specifically because it required identification, and being quite dodgy about the topic. Being a 13 year old, he naturally wanted to find out why his mother was behaving in such a way, and went snooping for his birth certificate. When he found it, he also found that his name wasn't Walter Jones, but Walter Douglass, and that his father was not Walter T Jones, his mother's husband, but a different man, with the surname Douglass. While how Isabella reacted to this, or any of the drama that would come out as a result of such a discovery, is not remembered, Walter did end up going by his legal name, and would later move from England to New Zealand in 1938. 

However, the version of the story recorded on our ancestry, differs from this oral version. Rather, it says that Isabella's maiden name is Douglass and our Douglas ancestry is her line, Walter is listed as the child of Walter Jones and Isabella, and that the story regarding WW1 is: "volunteered for service aboard a paddle steamer across Dardinells and was issued with uniform. His mother protested he was under age. He also found his name was Douglass not Jones at this time. Walter spent the war in merchant navy -family history". His siblings are also listed with a variety of surnames, excluding married names (Douglass, Douglass-Jones, or a few even called Hogarth/Hoggarth- no reason for this is noted). And there are other details that are unlikely, such as the first child of Isabella and Walter Sr being born when they were 9 and 10 respectively. 

Our ancestry records were compiled by my grandmother, who began research into our family history over 50 years ago, and who has been digitalising her records for longer than I've been alive (I hope I'm not making anyone feel old in saying that), and unfortunately her memory has long been on the decline. There are many points on the family tree that I'm trying to clarify and correct, but unfortunately there are a lot of records to go over, and none of her children took much interest in genealogy, so there's no one I can ask for clarifications or fixes over such issues. If think you might know something, any help would be appreciated. Attached is an image of Walter Douglass, and his mother Isabella. 

[Mark Stephen Elliott]

Finding that Elliott, and Douglass lean English, where Elliot and Douglas lean Scottish. This felt to be of a split of Danish Northumbria, Declaration of Abroath, which Yorkshire is in the English part of. The Douglas and Elliot of the Hawick (pronouce 'hoik' spelled Haik, where 'ai' of Scoland pronounce like 'oi'), are in the north part of Danish Northumbria.

Mark Elliott

[William Douglas]

Interesting conundrum!

This looks like a case for some DNA detective work.  I know little about that, but do know it is usually a male thing.

Maybe someone else can help?

William

[Ruby Petra Louise Douglas]

I'm aware of the DNA side of this archive... has a Y-DNA haplogroup been established for the main Douglas line? Presuming the parent-child relations are accurate until this point (which, admittedly, needs to be investigated) then either Isabella or Walter's father descended from a purely male Douglas to Douglas line dating back to the Dukes of Queensberry, and thus this main line. My father is interested, and currently looking into getting a DNA test (it's a matter of money at the moment), which would allow us to find out his paternal haplogroup, him being a direct male-line descendant of Walter. Therefore, finding if his haplogroup would match this one could be a likely indicator as which way the truth goes. 

[William Douglas]

The DouglasDNA project can be seen here:
https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/douglas/about/background

Clicking on the Results tab shows the various lines.

I have messaged you about funds.

[Mark Stephen Elliott]

Though used Y-DNA, genealogy. first.  Mark 

noted; On MyHeritage also, which accepts autosomal Ancestry, and 23andMe uploads. Auto-somal DNA is the DNA which I would utilize, Walter is in easy reach of it.

https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2XPP-MHS

https://www.familysearch.org/tree/person/details/LYTF-DPY

Because of Douglas demand need to upload the following image;

[Ruby Petra Louise Douglas]

Hi Mark, cheers for the research! The second link you've included is definitely the Walter Douglass I'm talking about! (I'm planning on adding details of his descendants that I have to that website when possible). 

To clarify: are you saying you believe you'll be able to figure out Walter's Y-DNA/paternal haplogroup? If so, that would be a big help :)

[Mark Stephen Elliott]

About three Queensberry groupings. Would need a male related descendant for Y-DNA. 

Walter Douglas
MyHeritage Family TreesMeachen Web Site, managed by Brian Meachen
Birth
Feb 28 1901 - Middlesbrough, North Yorkshire, England, United Kingdom
Death
Mar 21 1992 - Takapuna, Auckland, New Zealand
Wife
Annie Jane Watts
Children
Eric Thomas Vincent Scanlan, Leila Iris Helen Scanlan, Mulipola Herbert Joseph Scanlan, Edward John William Scanlan, Joseph Scanlan

https://billiongraves.com/grave/Walter-Douglas/3480667?referrer=myh...

FamilySearch Family Tree
Birth
Feb 28 1901 - Middlesbrough, North Yorkshire, England, United Kingdom

Death
Mar 21 1992 - Takapuna, Auckland, New Zealand
Wife
Annie Jane Watts

Like only one Walter Douglas(s) born 1901 - Middlesbrough, North Yorkshire, England, United Kingdom, with death in New Zealand. If a descendant has submitted DNA for MyHeritage for instance, (lead is weak and needs to be checked) if you submit yours if biologically related there should be a match indicating how close you are related.

Sincerely,

Mark Elliott

[Ruby Petra Louise Douglas]

Yeah, that's definitely him. I've seen the gravestone in person before. I have taken a DNA test with 23 and Me and my dad is planning to take a DNA test at some point (hopefully soon). If you're just asking for any sort of DNA match, I'll can export my results, however if it's Y-DNA you need, then (to my knowledge) my dad'll be the first direct male-line descendant of Walter to test DNA, so I can't offer anything until that happens. 

[Mark Stephen Elliott]

MyHeritage, seems to be showing some weak activity your direction, but Ancestry.com, has the largest DNA database. Ancestry.com does not accept raw data from elsewhere. Since it is auto-somal DNA not Y based, and you carry it Ancestry.com may be the best then submit later the Ancestry raw data to MyHeritage. Some people use both sites. Dealing with many years of family research, with materials passed down to my father, his mother kept the archives protected in the farmhouse attic with a mouse trap. 

Thought you might be from New Zealand. The Udall are Morman Democrats popular it seems in all of the Four Corner States New Mexico where he's from, Arizona, and Colorado, except may be Utah the Mormon state.

U.S. AMBASSADOR THOMAS STEWART UDALL
Ambassador Thomas Stewart Udall. Photo credit: U.S. Department of State.

Māori

Ko Sangre de Cristo te maunga

Ko Rio Grande te awa

Nō Santa Fe ahau

Ko Udall tōku whānau

Ko Tom tōku ingoa

Ko Jill Cooper taku hoa wahine

Sangre de Cristo is the mountain

Rio Grande is the river

I'm from Santa Fe

Udall is my family

My name is Tom

Jill Cooper is my girlfriend

Mark