Drysdale - a Douglas sept

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Comment by Ronald Drysdale 14 hours ago

Hi William,

You are probably right about that and I don't know of any documented male Drysdales showing male Douglas ancestry.

Meanwhile, I haven't tested mine and don't intend to.

In today's society, such data is not secure and if sold on or otherwise disseminated to unscrupulous third parties - who knows what "they" can do with it.

But I agree, from a genealogical sense, it would be interesting to see what DNA testing across a wide spectrum of Drysdale families would reveal.

Best regards

  

Comment by William Douglas 16 hours ago

My deduction on DNA research is that not enough Drysdales have tested their DNA.

But this certainly not my area of expertise!

Comment by Ronald Drysdale 19 hours ago

Taking note of Mark's Query on Bing's AI in the previous post, I put a similar query to Google:

"clans douglas drysdale dna genealogy"

Quote:

Based on genealogical and DNA evidence, the Scottish surname Drysdale is considered a sept of Clan Douglas, with historical origins predating this association. DNA projects can help descendants confirm and investigate their specific connections to either the Douglas lineage or other Drysdale families.

Drysdale origins: A sept of Douglas
The relationship between the Drysdale and Douglas names is complex, with both traditional accounts and DNA data shedding light on their shared history.

Drysdale's connection to Douglas: Traditional accounts state that some Drysdales are descended from three Douglas brothers who, in 1503, were exiled from Dryfesdale in Dumfriesshire after a conflict. They resettled in Fife, adopting the Drysdale name.

Drysdale's earlier origin: The name Drysdale (originally Dryfesdale) was in use before the 1503 event. The name is locational, deriving from the Dryfe Water valley in Dumfriesshire, where a church was dedicated as early as 1116. This suggests that not all Drysdale lines originate from the Douglas brothers.

Sept relationship: Because of these various origins, the Clan Douglas Society of North America (CDSNA) classifies Drysdale as a sept, or an allied family, of Clan Douglas. This classification acknowledges a historical association rather than assuming all Drysdales are direct paternal descendants of the Douglas clan.

DNA evidence for Douglas and Drysdale
Genetic genealogy projects have helped confirm and distinguish between different Douglas and Drysdale lines.

Douglas DNA Project: The Douglas Archives run an ongoing DNA project that uses Y-DNA testing to explore the different lineages within the clan. By comparing the Y-DNA (passed from father to son) of modern descendants to known historical lines, they can confirm connections to different branches, such as the Earls of Drumlanrig/Queensberry and the Earls of Morton.

Multiple lineages: DNA testing has shown that the Douglas clan is composed of several distinct Y-DNA lineages. For example, some proven lines, such as the Drumlanrig/Queensberry/Morton Douglases, belong to the R1a haplogroup. Other lineages have different haplogroups, such as E3b, suggesting multiple historical origins for families bearing the Douglas surname.

Identifying specific branches: The Douglas DNA project has successfully distinguished between different branches. For example, by testing descendants of Domini Douglas and the Earls of Morton, researchers proved that their Y-DNA profiles do not match. This confirmed that Domini was likely not a paternal descendant of the same line as the Earls of Morton, a finding consistent with his mother being Irish.

How to use DNA for genealogy
For those with Douglas or Drysdale ancestry, DNA testing can provide valuable genealogical insights.

Y-DNA testing: A male Drysdale or Douglas can take a Y-DNA test to trace his direct paternal line. The results can then be compared to the larger Douglas DNA project database to see if he matches any of the documented Douglas lineages. A non-match could suggest the line descends from an earlier Dryfesdale family or another unassociated line.

.........etc.

Unquote

Best regards

Comment by William Douglas on June 16, 2025 at 11:33

I have just been down the wrong rabbit hole, but still an interesting excursion:
https://www.familysearch.org/en/tree/person/details/P9BR-SK1 
Douglas and Drysdale in Northumberland.

Comment by William Douglas on April 24, 2025 at 8:35

For reference@
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drysdale,_Victoria 

Comment by William Douglas on March 25, 2025 at 17:04

Arms of Thomas Drysdale: Argent a saltire and chief azure, four crosses moline gules in the cantons.

Thomas Drysdale was Lyon Depute of The Court of the Lord Lyon, or Lyon Court in 1627
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Lyon_King_of_Arms 

Comment by Ronald Drysdale on March 1, 2025 at 0:15

Hi William

Up until about the year 1600 the two respective family lines are defined/limited by available source material and the fact that there were very few Drysdales around at that time.

Thereafter the growth in the numbers of descendants is exponential and quickly arrives at many thousands of relatives - including many 100s of Drysdales - some lines are obviously unsourced & suspect but the majority are generally OK
- Note also that there are many people who have not been entered in the FS world tree. 

My genealogy program crashes by the time it gets to about the 12th generation of descendants from the Douglas brothers and the same thing happens at the 14th generation of descendants of the Tillicoultry Drysdales.

I haven't worked out yet if there is any program that can limit family lines to male descendants (Drysdales) only.

On the last Familysearch download I did - for Drysdales from Tillicoultry circa 1410 - after about 15 hours of download and about 30,000 names, (up until 1895 & 14 Generations) the program gave up.

Similarly on the last Familysearch download I did - for Douglas/Drysdales of Dollar circa 1448 - after about 10 hours of download and about 13,500 names (up until 1895 & 12 Generations) the program gave up.

Note although starting at a later date the Douglas/Drysdale names list seemed to be expanding quicker.

Of course the easy alternative is to trace each individuals family line on the FamilySearch tree back to the root

Root person in Tillicoultry - Drysdale ID number G2S7-JYJ
Root person for Dollar - Thomas Douglas ID number YMP4C-15Y

There are other ways but the limiting factors are the download times from FS and the vast numbers of persons in the later generations (the software - Ancestral Quest - and my PC seem to have trouble with big numbers)

Still a work in progress

Best regards

Comment by William Douglas on February 28, 2025 at 22:12

It would be interesting to know the connections of the various Drysdales mentioned in the different versions of this story that you have identified.

Comment by Ronald Drysdale on February 28, 2025 at 19:17

Hi william,

Your link to the Clan Douglas Association of Australia newsletter of 1987 is quite interesting in that it reveals yet another slight variation to the 1503 story. In all I have found three CDAA newsletters with the 1503 story:

CDAA Newsletter 2 - 1987 - entitled Know your roots "The origin of Drysdale"
CDAA Newsletter 8 - 1989 - entitled Septs "The Drysdale Family"
CDAA Newsletter 87 - 2010 - entitled "THE ORIGIN OF DRYSDALE - A SEPT OF CLAN DOUGLAS" - this is an identical copy of that printed in Newsletter 2

The text in Newsletters 2 & 8 differs slightly and gives an indication as to why there are so many slightly different variants of this story:

Newsletter 2 says the story was copied by four people (presumably by hand) and then first printed in 1858 and again in the same form in 1863, 1941 and 1970

Newsletter 8 again says it was copied by four people (presumably by hand) and then printed in 1841, 1870, 1881, 1892 & 1938 (giving possible variations) and copied in 1987

Relevant text;

CDAA Newsletter 2 - 1987

Copied.......First by Simon Drysdale of the Haugh of Dollar in the vear 1620; by Robert Drysdale of Tillecoultry AD 1708, by John Drysdale, Dumfermline, 1835; by James Hogg Drysdale, Dunfermline 1858 and printed first in the year 1858 by John Drysdale, Montrose, again in same form by the last named John Drysdale of Glasgow 1863,and by Henry Dron Drysdale of Haddington in 1941, and lastly by Donald Douglas of Morven, Queensland, Australia in 1970......

CDAA Newsletter 8 - 1989

Copied .......first by Symon Drysdale of the Haugh of Dollar, 1620; by Robert Drysdale, Tillicoultry, 1708; by John Drysdale, Dunfermline, 1835; by James Drysdale, Dunfermline, 1838; printed by John Drysdale, Montrose, 1841; printed by William Drysdale, Alva, 1870; printed for Robert Drysdale, Tillicoultry, 1881; printed for David Drysdale, Warwick Lodge, Brixton, London, 1892; printed for Alexander Drysdale, Alloa, 1938; and copied by Neil M. Douglas Ewins in 1987 a descendant of David Drysdale, tailor in Sauchie, Clackmannanshire, and Janet McGregor
(married 5th January, 1800, Clackmannan)........

With regard to the Origins of the name Drysdale, you may be interested to note that I've just about finished modifying the Familysearch worldwide family tree to reflect the Dumfriesshire (Ingebald) origins of the Tillicoultry, Staffordshire and Yorkshire Drysdales (plus the odd Drysdale families cropping up in Annandale and England in 1500s) and the Douglas origins of the Drysdales in Dollar. The Ingebald and Douglas family lines lead (in theory) to the totality of the Drysdales that are found today - it's about a 50/50 split.

Based on my family lines in the 'Tree' I am related to Ingebald through the Tillicoultry Drysdales & I am also related to the Douglas Brothers though the Dollar Drysdales (James Drysdale of Lochleven fame was my 13th Great Grandfather!)

Best regards

Comment by William Douglas on February 28, 2025 at 12:31

The origins and some biographies can be found in this newsletter:
https://www.douglashistory.co.uk/history/CDAA&CDSA/CDAA%20Newsl... 

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